Hi Evan, I realised today that although wiki's pages are counted as being 729 at the top of the page, they are actually far less, due to many pages being blank and just redirecting to another page. For example, look at how many redirects are listed here.
Taking a sample, I checked how many of the pages listed in the left column of the first link were actual non-data pages, and they were only 37 out of 115 pages, which gives a 32% percentage (I know this a is a joke for proper random sampling, but it still gives a picture). If we subtract from those 729 pages the 150 that belong to mods (I did some additions to the mods catalogue and ended up counting their pages), that leaves us with 730-150=580*32%=185 pages approximately. As this number is manageable for sorting, would you consider useful a page with Original PD's active pages sorted in subjects or alphabetically? I am asking because I would be glad to do it, but writing a list and then adding links to it is rather boring, so I would not like to get into this inconvenience and then enter a discussion about the page remaining in the wiki or not. Note that I am genuinely asking the question, and not asking a favor from you to let me write the page. Also, happy new year!
SuperSaiyan99 might also want to weigh in on this, but I feel like such a page would be useful.
One thing to note though is it sounds similar in functionality to the front page of the wiki, which is also trying to list/categorize the Wiki's Vanilla PD content for easy viewing. Currently I don't think it does too great of a job though, as the actual content is all relegated to a scrolling list on the left, which contains about 2.5x as many items as its size on my screen. I've never really had the time to consider it properly but I do think the front page could do with reorganizing, so that the actual content (including mods potentially) is presented more directly.
SuperSayian becomes inactive for extended periods currently, so I will proceed with just your OK, and if he eventually thinks that the page is an abomination and should get deleted, I will listen to the Universe Song by Monty Pythons and make peace with that.
About your second paragraph, I agree, but adding a selection of wiki's contents organized thematically to its main page is far more crucial than adding just a page to it, and SuperSayian's opinion weighs even more. So, here's what I think we should do. I will start compiling the content as part of a plain wiki page and when I finish the link-adding and sorting in contents, I will ask you to edit it. Then we can wait for SuperSayian to share his thoughts about its place in the wiki.
Update: Here is a small part, currently sorting only contents under A https://pixeldungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Content_Page_WIP Don't bother with it yet, I will tell you when I need your opinion/edit, I am just letting you know. Btw, the percentage for A was higher than the 32% of the random sample, 18 pages sorted/34 original catalogue pages, so 52%, but half the amount is still considerably less.
Edit: Remind me where I can find the wiki's categories all together, I am sure you have written me a link previously here or in reddit, but I am unable to find it. I assume that some category pages could also fit in the page in a separate section, or added here there in the different subjects.
I remembered this conversation as Mdsimmo giving me the green light to make some front page edits, but upon re-reading it now I realize I remembered incorrectly, and he basically gave me permission to make changes to the Wikia in general.
In the next few days I'm going to try and message him (hopefully he still gets notified) so I can see if he can promote me to Bureaucrat. That will let me promote some of the more recently active people to admin and content moderator roles, and then we can start discussing how we might want to improve the wiki in general.
Conveniently, I think the first major step should be redesigning the front page of the wiki. Currently there's a lot of space which is being taken up by descriptions of what the game and wiki are, and that space could instead be used to link to the actual content. If we use space more wisely, and perhaps condense the links to vanilla content a bit, there should be loads of room to link to content pertaining to mods. Condensing the vanilla categories a bit means that larger vanilla information pages would be quite useful, and that happens to be exactly what you're working on!
Understanding administrator status as "ability to make some front page edits" is in the border between humiility and inadequate reading comprehension lol. I agree that active contributors that have a more general opinion about the wiki should get promoted, and this can't be achieved otherwise than promoting the currently only constantly active administrator, you, to bureaucrat, I agree also with that. You imply me as one of these contributors, and I thank you for your appreciation, but if you won't mind a suggestion, Omicronrg9 is a frequent contributor who would be the most useful to get promoted (and I mean it in a sense that if you would promote only one, I think that you should choose him over me or any other person), as he has the greatest supervision about the PD mods and is not biased at all in his approach to them. Conversely, when there is negative bias towards specific mods, I think priviledges should be granted with moderation. I agree also with all your ideas about the wiki's front page and I will put the writing of the page in higher priority for this reason. All in all, go for it :-)
Edit: You haven't answered the question about the categories list, it is not urgent, but do find it and copy paste it here when you have time.
Edit 2: I counted the total pages from A to D and those that I have sorted and included in the page, and they are 77/273 - 28%, so the whole thing proceeds much quicker than I expected. It seems that the amount of redirects and data stubs that are counted as pages is actually huge.
Well the wikia has both admin and bureaucrat roles, so I assumed my promotion to admin was more about upkeep than making changes. Of course having seen that message again I realize that's not the case. I don't want to commit to anyone in particular, but I think you, Omicronrg9, MrKukurykpl, and Zrp200 are all obvious candidates for promotion.
Yeah, I mentioned Omicronrg9 because his written contributions in the wiki are far less in amount than those of the other 3 people you mentioned, but has other important wiki-related virtues, and I was making myself sure that you acknowledge them as well. In any case I was not asking you to commit to anyone in particular, you are a fully grown man and a developer of 2 mods, you are totally capable of making your own PD decisions unasisted :-). That said, the absence of negative bias towards specific mods I think should be a basic criterion of promoting a contributor to a very high status, whoever that person may be.
Agreed, while I do think that the people I mentioned will have preferences (for example, many members of the English community dislike the gameplay of Remixed Dungeon), I trust that won't affect their decision-making when it comes to wiki editing, especially given that any major decision such as design changes to the front page should be done as a group. If you do have any specific concerns you wanted to share privately I'd be happy to hear them though.
Υes, I was mostly thinking the dislike or even hate that Remixed occasionally gets, but I wrote it is a ganeral criterion applying to all mods, thinking that community administrators should be impartial to start with (they can have positive bias - preferences, negative bias is the problem), as their higher status grants more symbolic power to their words. Thanks for the invitation to a possible personal communication, but I will decline it for this subject, making personalized negative comments in a non public channel of communciation is not a good practice I think, or more simply put, rather petty and catty for my taste.
Fair enough, my main point with the invitation was in case you had any information I wasn't aware of, not just to give an opinion. I don't think just expressing a negative opinion about a mod means that person has a negative bias, but after looking over chat history regarding remixed I agree that it's significant enough to be a factor. I (hopefully) would have noticed this either way, as I was planning on looking into activity history, but it's helpful to be made aware of this early, thanks.
I think that information easily available to everybody here in the wiki or in reddit/discord will be more than enough for you to reach a conclusion, and if I had initially understood what you actually meant, I would have told you privately just the same thing, so we ended up with the same result :-) So, congrats for your new role, I just saw in the Recent Wiki Activity that Mdsimmo has responded to you and learned the news this way. You already said that you are planning to look into activity history, look into whatever you think it will be useful for you obviously, but if you have time, have a look also in the second paragraph of my profile, I wrote it 20 days ago, not imagining at all the possibility of a discussion like that we are currently having, but it describes rather accurately how I see the wiki in general.
Hi Evan, this is sort of irrelevant to this thread, but there is no need for a mural of my messages on your wall, so I am posting it here. I have just added a paragraph about the GPL license in the general mods page (the one I have asked you already to have a look/edit it), but I am not 100% sure I got everything right, so be kind enough to have also a look at it. To make your life easier, I am copy pasting the addition here (I want you to check the text in italics).
Starting from the 27th July 2014, the developer of Original PD, Watabou / Oleg Dolya, has made the game's code public and as a consequence has allowed the development of modifications for it by various secondary developers, as Pixel Dungeon has become since an open source applicationwith its modifications having to follow the guidelines of the GNU General Public License v.3. The license provides a general framework for all open source software, but its requirements most relevant to PD modding are that credit should be given to the original source material's developer(s) and that the source code of the new game has to be also public and so open to new modifications itself. Modifications that violate the GNU GPL v.3's guidelines, those allready mentioned or others, are considered illegitimate and sooner or later get forced to withdraw from most platforms of public distribution (it should be noted that although monetization in the form of having to buy the game, in-game advertisements or of extra content only available after purchase is disliked by many PD players, it is not against the GNU GPL v.3 license's guidelines).
Update: I have also added this pargraph. I need your opinion for all of it, so using italcis is pointless here.
It has already been mentioned in the beginning of this page that the requirements of the GNU GPL v.3 license most relevant to PD modding are that credit should be given to the original source material's developer(s) and that the source code of the new game has to be also public and so the game open to new modifications itself; mods that violate the GNU GPL v.3's guidelines are considered illegitimate and sooner or later get forced to withdraw from most platforms of public distribution. The most common "offense" of illegitimate mods is for them to be just clones/ripoffs of an already existing mod or of the Original and to not mention their source in an attempt to cover up this fact. Nevertheless, some mods violate the GNU GPL v.3 license without any malicious intention by their developers, for example in the case of mods that acknowledge their source, add original content to it, but their developers don't make the source code publicly available (this can be just due to negligence, or a temporary fault, because the developer wants to finalize the source code before they make it available to the public). Note that a mod can be considered problematic for reasons that are not described by the license: for example for using intellectual property of another developer which is not covered by the license, so it is actually protected by copyright, or for including hate speech or other inappropriate features in its content (both examples are drawn from existing PD mods). The PD wiki is currently making the decision to host pages for mods that are problematic for various reasons, and just to mention the problematic facts in the mods' descriptions, while it only excludes plain clones/ripoffs from having a page in it. Nevertheless the PD subreddit has a stricter policy than the wiki, and in addition to clone/ripoff mods currently also bans developers that they have been proven to include hate speech content in their mods, and mods that contain copyrighted material which was not used after permission of the original creator.
Sorry for the delay, I've been a bit backed up with messages due to the latest Shattered beta release. Both of those paragraphs sound correct to me. I think these sort of 'general information' pages (you were also working on something a bit similar for vanilla, correct?) might go along well with a redesigned front page, as one easy way to improve information density there is to have some sub pages, instead of exhaustively listing categories. I'm hoping to have an early draft of what a better front page might look like in a few days.
No need to apologize, as I have told you elsewhere, there was no hurry. I am glad that these paragraphs are correct, understanding legal-ish texts in English is definitely not among the strong points of my reading comprehension, that's why I asked for your opinion.
Yeah I have been working also in this https://pixeldungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Content_Page_WIP, this thread we are in basically started about writng this page or not :-) This page was close to being completed as a first draft (I have selected and sorted all regular pages from A to M and also all category pages), but I have decided to wait for a discussion that we had both participated along with other people to come to a closure, before I continue with it, because I would like to receive feedback about the sorting criteria from some other people as well but I would also prefer it to be done constructively.
I have already told you that I agree in general with your idea of redesigning the front page. Whenever you have time and finish a first draft of it I will be much interested to see it.
Hi Evan, I don't know if we have discussed it previously, but my studies so far have been in linguistics and social science, and have only read a couple of books about programming. As a consequence I would appreciate very much if you read and possibly edited the first two paragraphs of this new page I have written https://pixeldungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Pixel_Dungeon_Mods_Generally On a side note, congratulations for reaching the same amount of mods with Original PD (you will find the numbers at the end of the page).
Thanks! having looked that those first two paragraphs, here's what I noticed:
Pixel Dungeon is heavily inspired by Brogue, but isn't based on its source code, and so I think a lot of your word use ("a mod of brogue", "adapted brogue", etc.) doesn't fit well.
You might also want to mention that the term for a pixel dungeon mod is similar to 'fork' (which is an open-source term) or 'version'. I've used this terminology before and I think it's the clearest way to communicate what PD mods are to people who are used to the term 'mod' in other contexts.
I genuinely thought that Watabou had also adapted Brogue's code to the java environment, while making many changes, but instead of reading it somewhere, I must have just imagined it lol. I will incorporate your edits, but enlighten me in this: when the programming languages are different (Brogue as far as I know is in C and Pixel Dungeon in Java), isn't the amount of adapted content an extra criterion that allows the use of the term "mod", or at least "adaptation", or the technical requirement of the use of the source code must also be met? And if the latter is the case, are mods written in different languages than java not actually mods? Again, I will incorporate your edits, I am just trying to understand the subject better.
Edit: Done, when you have time have again a look in the second and third paragraph (I did some rearranging).
I definitely agree that PD and Brogue are very similar, but generally the term mod (or fork or version) are only used when games share code/assets, not just ideas. e.g. there are a tonne of block-based mining/crafting games that are clearly heavily derivative to minecraft, but you wouldn't call them minecraft mods. As for mods that are written in other languages, I would say they count as mods if they have copied over assets, directly converted the code from Java to another language, or were attempting to exactly recreate PD's gameplay. Programming languages often have similar overarching concepts or shared origins (similar to spoken languages), so translating code between languages is often possible.
As for the paragraphs, I don't see any technical issues with the writing now, but I think it's a bit confusing to use the term 'fork' when they are referred to as 'mods' elsewhere. My apologies as I realize I sort of suggested that, what I meant was that it might be helpful to use 'fork' or 'version' to explain what a mod means in the PD context, not to use the word instead of mod.
That makes perfect sense now, thank you very much for the clarification of the term. Yeah, I misunderstood your comment as you advising me to replace "mod" with "fork", but it is no big deal, one of the very few merits of the wikia's visual editor is its "find and replace" option, it will take me 2' to revert it back.
A small correction in my first message, after I have redone some calculations: in total your direct mods are 45, so Original PD is stlll beating Shattered PD, but if we also add those that are mods of Shattered's mods, the number goes up to 52 and becomes equal to that of Original PD's direct mods. Nevertheless, in that sense (direct + indirect mods) all mods are mods of Original PD, so Watabou will be always winning in this field :-)
That makes sense. It would be odd for Shattered to be a more popular platform than vanilla! I don't have the time to implement it, but I often wonder how many people would want to mod a codebase that's functionally vanilla but with all Shattered's technical improvements. I did already do that one codebase that gives vanilla Shattered's build process though, which is probably the most important change for a modder.
Having 45 direct mods in comparison to the 52 mods of Vanilla is still a huge influence. Also I am sure that the majority of mods from 2018 and on are mods of Shattered, but I haven't sorted out Omicron's data about that yet and I can't offer specific numbers. So in terms of current modding influence, Shattered is the new Vanilla, with the exception of the Russian community, in which Remixed has an almost equally strong influence.
Edit: I had some free time and got curious, so here are the sorted out data:
2014 Original PD 11 mods, (all numbers mentioned are for direct mods)
2015 Original PD 17 mods - Shattered PD 4 mods,
2016 Original PD 9 mods - Shattered PD 2 mods,
2017 Original P5 5 mods - Shattered PD 7 mods,
2018 Original PD 7 mods - Shattered PD 13 mods,
2019 (until August) Original PD 1 mod - Shattered PD 18 mods.
Hi, I did one one final search in the images catalogue and found one last SPS-PD image which is not deleted, but I also realised that there are some mod logos in two or even three versions. Don't worry, this will not be a long list. I have already compared the duplicates/triplicates and I am suggesting for deletion the worst or unnecessarily big versions. After some image replacements they are also all unused.
Thanks one more time for the quick response. An irrelevant with the logos question that just popped up: is there a way for non-admins to see the amount of the wiki's page visitors? I was thinking of repeating the mods' popularity poll in the beginning of next year, and if I have access to these, it could be a much more reliable resource for the preliminary sorting of mods instead of the google downloads.
Thank you very much Evan, it shows statistics from 1 week up to 1 month, so it will be very helpful to me. Btw I have just confirmed that the wiki has a partly different audience from reddit, Perfect Pixel Dungeon was not voted even once in my poll, while its page has 30 views in the last month here.
Seeing as there's a lot more views that votes, the wiki should hopefully be a bit kinder to smaller mods. I think it's also important to consider that the wiki will put a strong emphasis on who's playing currently (sort of the opposite of total installs, which heavily favor historically relevant mods), and will also be biased towards mods that are less self-explanatory. Still it's probably a much more reliable measure than total installs.
Yeah, the reflection of the people currently playing instead of the people that once have installed the game is the reason I was looking for these statistics in the first place. If someone is interested in current popularity, the total amount of installs can even be misleading to them. You are also right about less self-explanatory mods having an advantage in readership, and it is currently refrlected, for example Overgrown PD which has something like 30 new plants, seeds and corresponding potions, without adequate descriptions for most of them, has currently 300 page views for the last month. Special Surprise PD could be also a test for that, but I am still editing its page, so its stats are biased by me :-)
Hi Evan, today I added a page about a new mod named "Dungeon Echo" by Google Play store, but named "Pixel Dungeon Echo" by its developer (https://pixeldungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Mod-Pixel_Dungeon_Echo). There is currently some disagreement between me and the developer on whether the "official name" that the Play Store uses should be the name of the page and the name mentioned for the mod inside the page, or the name chosen by the developer. As far as I know, the general guideline is that the "official names" are used in the wiki pages, but as the developer believes that the chosen name by him should be used instead, I thought that this should be a decision made by the admins and retain my role as a plain content contributor. To avoid unnecessary disputes, for the time being the page is named according to the developer's wishes. For details about the developer's objections you can read the fourth thread of this reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/PixelDungeon/comments/e90tp2/new_mod_pixel_dungeon_echo/ I don't know how you tag people in wikia, but use the most suitable way to inform Supersayian or any other admin who you consider that should get informed about this issue.
I feel as though the google play listing shouldn't be the definitive name of the version (e.g. doing that would mean Shattered's name would be "Shattered Pixel Dungeon: Roguelike Dungeon Crawler"). Of course it will be the correct name very often, so it's probably safe to use it as a default unless there's conflicting info elsewhere. This is why I was afraid to say Remixed Dungeon should be renamed until we got clarification from the devs.
On a somewhat related note, I'm sad to see another person giving up the name and not trying to fight Google over it, seeing as many other devs have shown its very possible to convince them. It's a big reason why I have a big warning on Shattered's source to contact me before releasing on Google, so I can offer advice on how to talk to them.
Hi Evan, thanks for the quick response. I had gathered from a previous discussion some months ago with SuperSaiyan that the general guideline was basically preferring the play store name because of its recognisability to readers, that's why I insisted with the developer, but I can't find the thread with this interaction with SuperSayian (it most probably is in the forums somewhere), so I might be remembering it inaccurately. In any case what you write is reasonable and I agree, and I will have it in mind for future reference.
On a side note, Omicronrg9 told me to say "hi", and to ask you to remove these images.
Hi Evan, today I went through the images catalogue and found a few images from the previous list that you missed and a few that I had forgotten. Then I thought that I had some free time today, so I decided to conclude the jpg chapter of my life in the wiki, and replaced all of those remaining with pngs. So I can assure you that this is the last big list with images to get deleted. Like with the previous one, there is no hurry etc.
Unfortunately not all were, but our deleting hits in this round had 93.3% success (only 8/103 have remained), which is an exceptional stat :-) These are the last remaining, as you see this harvest is very poor. Again thank you very much for your collaboration in this objectively boring task.
I guess that's what has happened in all your previous misses, considering they were specific links. The other scenario is you visiting the link and saying, "Nah, I like his one, it has a naif quality combined with an influence by arte povera. I think I will keep it." lol.
Hi again Evan, I hope that not responding to me yet is not due to the shock caused to you by my previous message. I assure you that this will be a much lighter version. So, while I was replacing the jpgs with pngs I realized that the images catalogue in the wiki was getting bigger and bigger and in order to lessen a bit this expansion - bloating, whenever I was finding a "png to be deleted", I started replacing it with another png file, no matter what the title was supposed to be, to save some space, thinking that these could be renamed at a second point. So this point has come. In all of these files their page description includes their correct name. If for any reason renaming will take you much more time than deleting them, just let me know and I will reupload them with the corrrect title, and you can use this list as a second list of files to delete.
Thank you very much Evan, that was really quick, considering the huge amount of files. With all the SPS-PD deleting I think that this is the last time you will encounter either many deleting or renaming requests from me, but I will have that deleting is easier in mind anyway. I know that the renamed files were in use, but it will be easy for me to find their old locations now that they have a proper name. Thanks again!
Edit: I replaced the missing links for all of them.
Hi Evan, it took me some more time than I expected, because I was replacing the jpgs of SPS-PD with pngs and at the same time updating its pages, but I have finally finished. In the process of searching SPS-PD images to get deleted in the images catalogue I also found some other pngs and jpgs uploaded by me that were unused and of low quality or duplicates, and a few of completely withdrawn SPS-PD sprites so I am adding these also. I will post a second message with images that I want you to rename, to avoid confusing you, so the images included in this message are all for deletion. Obviously there is no hurry, deleting them will just make the wiki image catalogue a bit smaller and so a bit easier to navigate.
Reasoning: No playable version of the mod has ever been released to the public. The user Powered_Blood started working on these pages (and supposedly also the mod) in November of 2017, with his last, most recent contribution on the wikia made over a year ago, and no source code or alternative way of contacting them was provided. "ExpandedPD Wiki", listed in the user's "My favorite wikis" section on profile has been removed or never existed in the first place. I figured at this point we just have to accept this mod just isn't going to happen, and that cataloguing informations about nonexistent - at least to our knowledge - mods isn't really helpful.
Now that I can post messages in your wall, I copy-paste my message from reddit, as you have asked me to do in similar occasions:
Hi Evan, I first started getting involved with the wiki by editing the Sprouted and SPS-PD pages. Back then, my visual editing sklills were horrible and now that they have become less horrible ("better" would be an overstatement) I have decided to replace all the jpg. screenshots of Sprouted that I had originally added with transparent png. files. As you know different file types can't be replaced, so here is a list with image files to delete:
I also thank you for the quick response. I know about SPS-PD, but there is no big harm done if a game description in SPS-PD remains without an image for some days or a week or two, SPS-PD is the immediate next box in my cleaning list :-) Also, replacing the SPS-PD images might not even be needed, hmdzl has already released a new Halloween update, and some of these images might not be valid anymore anyway.
If you have read the previous version of this message, nevermind. Wikia doesn't always save my edits and I can't use a comment here in your wall as a notepad. I wlll leave you a full list when I finish.