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  • Has anyone wondered which tier weapon should you pick? 

    Well... for me it's either war hammer or knucleduster.

    Since knuckleduster is the fastest yet lightest weapon to use, and monks can't knock them OFF! it is quite convenient to upgrade this. I've noticed that upgraded dusters are really efficient (with a gd armor and dodge), after a +5, the duster will be really OP. <----- Gladiators go well with knuckledusters.

    Knuckleduster


    But war hammers are really a huge feat. They do quite a large amt of dmg, and pleasing to the eyes (IT'S GOLD!),  upgraded hammers will kill quite well.


    War hammer


    So? Conclusion anyone?

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    • My answers are simple: Knuckleduster for dwarfen city, warhammer for the rest

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    • Vanilla knuckledusters paired with Wands of Slowness do a fairly decent job of killing things.

      Gladiators and Assassins make very good use of knuckledusters. I've played both builds a couple of times. The most fun playthrough was with a +5 Stunning Knuckleduster Assassin (with Ring of Shadows +4) and the other a +4 Chilling on a Gladiator (4 hits for enemy's one. Had a ring of Accuracy though). Once you roll Stunning on a knuckleduster, you don't even need a + modifier on it to take things out, it works like the curare dart of old.

      Note: Knuckledusters actually allow the Gladiator to 'miss' one hit. As long as he hits every other hit, the combo is sustained.

      Warhammers are pretty straightforward and are accurate, which is a big bonus. No enchantments required, just lure stuff to a door if need be and knock off 60 HP a go. Then again, not very exciting to play, which is all you look for once you've finished the game 20+ times.

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    • Pretty much what Bhagas said.  =D  Or rather, to be more specific:  Knuckleduster for those pesky Dwarf Monks, and War Hammer for everyone else.

      ("For everything else, there's Mastercard." XD )

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    • Knuckledusters are decent, but no match not only for warhammer but also tier-4 weapons... UNLESS you have a good enchantment on that knuckleduster. Otherwise, sure, they work and cannot be kicked out of  your hands by THAT mob, but to call them OP? No, not really.

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    • Maybe we will get another reply from ACPL in no time...

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    • I'm playing through with a Unstable Knuckleduster right now and its awesome enchanting enemies with 3-4 different debuffs!

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    • I'd say War Hammer, they are good everywhere! For dwarf monks, all you need to do is the door surprise attack technique about 2-4 times(depending on the upgrade level) and boom! They're dead. This can save you alot of hp from fighting the golems. Although with knuckledusters, they too are good weapons, but they take a longer time to kill and needs a certain amount of upgrades for it to be good(With the excess strength bonus and upgrade bonus to make it strong) whereas you just need to upgrade the warhammer to your strength level and you hit high.

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    • Why haven't I seen this thread yet...

      Knuckledusters with right subclasses

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    • My best run ever I had a gladiator with at least a +2 vampiric knuckleduster that helped make the dwarven city smooth sailing. The demon halls though . . . relying on multiple melee attacks when fighting succubi is a recipe for disaster, not to mention the hazard of prolongued exposure to evil eyes. 

      Of course there's always rounds like I just had where after 17 levels I didn't come across -any- knuckledusters -- you can guess how well that went.

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    • I usually use an enchanted +6 knuckleduster and then work on my armour. I actually seem most successful when I try to bring one of those through the game. As for Demon Halls, I use Scrolls of Magic Mapping and Potions of Mind Vision and speedrun those. I usually do not engage a single enemy on those three floors.

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    • Kinixys wrote:
      I usually use an enchanted +6 knuckleduster and then work on my armour. I actually seem most successful when I try to bring one of those through the game. As for Demon Halls, I use Scrolls of Magic Mapping and Potions of Mind Vision and speedrun those. I usually do not engage a single enemy on those three floors.

      I usually engage on every enemy on those 3 floors LoL.

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    • What can I say? Cowardice isn't always a bad thing. Especially since my wonderful warden got shredded by three evil eyes a summoning trap spawned last time. I was actually using a venomous mace that time.

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    • I always use the knuckleduster, War Hammer hasn't spawned for me save for about 3 or four times.

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    • Kinixys wrote:
      What can I say? Cowardice isn't always a bad thing. Especially since my wonderful warden got shredded by three evil eyes a summoning trap spawned last time. I was actually using a venomous mace that time.

      In one of my early games, I had rushed through. Now, I just have to explore. That's not always a good thing though because in another Roguelike, that's getting me killed.

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    • Just made a fun run with knuckleduster. Started with +3 on statue on level 1. So I found a well and added Lucky on level 2. Found +1 Haste on level 4. Began to upgrade those. Used stone to add still more speed on level 6. Found Wand of Slowness on level 8. Barely took any damage from then on. Was able to kill most everything before it even got an attack. Absurdly easy. Came back up after got Amulet and suicide on level 5, but sadly those curse crabs kept me from a chance to repeat. PD giveth, PD taketh away!

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    • If you ever get the chance, Ring of Haste + Knucleduster = OP. Seriously, I got a +3 ring of haste and an upgraded knucleduster and just wrecked about anyone I encounter. Being able to attack several times is wonderful with that weapon. :3

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    • 75.137.3.168 wrote:
      If you ever get the chance, Ring of Haste + Knucleduster = OP.

      + Gladiator = OOP! ;)

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    • Yeah me too! I got a +6 Knuckleduster and a +5 Ring of Haste, and it's quite reassuring when you're in the Demon Hall (because I always explore all those levels, even if it's a bit dangerous!). But now with the weightstone you can again boost your speed (I don't know the formula, but it gives one or two strikes more I think!). So, the point is, when you can strike an ennemy 7 times, it's cool !! ;) 

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    • The Weightstone nearly doubles the speed of a weapon (all maybe?). I know for sure it nearly doubles the speed of a normal speed weapons. I hit an enemy twice in a row most of the time (once every about 4 or 5).

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    • I never count to know the real effect of a weighstone... but It should be easy.

      However, I wouldn't say it doubles the speed. For example, if you hit an enemy twice in a row every 4 hits with a normal weapon balanced for speed, it means that you hit 5 times, when the ennemy hits 4 times. So, it would mean that you weapon (1 turn to attack) uses now only 0.8 turn. (5 * 0.8 turn = 4 turns).

      Then, it would be easy to check with mace and knuckleduster, to see if the effect of weighstone is proportional (-20%), or fixed (-0.2 turn). For example, if a knuckelduster (0.5 turn) becomes 0.4, you will hit 5 times when the ennemy hit 2 times. But if it becomes 0.3, you could hit 3 times when the enemy hit one time... and sometimes 4 times, every 10 hits. :D

      I feel that a weightstone used for speed is more or less -20% speed, but I'm not sure, I didn't count...

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    • Actually you did your math wrong. You attack twice more often than you attack once not the other way around. So if the Weighstone makes it 1.8 times faster you would attack once every 5 turns for normal speed weapons. So the speed of the weapon would be 0.6. So for the Knuckledusters it would become 0.3.

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    • Ok, my fault. :) My math is correct in the previous post, but if you read the hypothesis I used, you can see I didn't use your input. I was not sure, but... I badly chose to understand that "you got twice in a row, once every 4", and not that "you attack twice in a row always, and you attack once only every 4". I couldn't believe a weighstone could be so powerful. :) But it is powerful...

      I did quickly some tests:

      With a knuckelduster balanced for speed, ther pattern is 3-3-4, so you attack ten times when the enemy attacks 3 times. The speed is not 0.5 anymore, but 0.3. There, I thought a weightstone was -0.2 turn... and so, I thought it was particularly efficient with fast weapons. But I was wrong. As we'll see, it's probably -40% turn! 0.5*0.6 = 0.3

      With a mace balanced for speed, you hit usually two times, and sometimes 3 times. It's hard to find the pattern. On DM-300, I could hit twice in a row 9 times, and then 3 hits in a row. 0.8*0.6=0.48 Do we have to round? Or does it really mean that we have 2 hits in a row 11 times, then 3 hit in a row? (So, we hit 25 times when the ennemy hits 12 times, it's 0.48.)

      With a sword balanced for speed, no surprise, the pattern is 2-2-1, as we could expect. We attack 5 times when the enemy attacks 3 times... 1*0.6 = 0.6, as new speed for the sword.


      So, the weighstone improve the speed of a weapon by 40%. (You get 0.6 * initial speed.) Sincerly, if it's really like that, it's enormous! If a weightstone was 0.8, I would already think it's very powerful. You could get the mace's speed with any normal weapon. So, 0.6 is... too much? :) For only 500 gold more or less, we are almost 2 times more powerful than before!

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    • I've now been dabbling with higher tiered weapons. I made a few successful runs with a glaive, but I never seem to be able to get a warhammer to work out for me. I never can seem to pick them up until Dwarven Metropolis. I think that's the thing I like about the knuckleduster. If you choose the mage, which happens to be my favourite class, you are guaranteed to have one. And yes, increasing the speed with a weightstone and having a ring of haste (I had a +4 one) makes the thing nightmarish. For your foes, of course.

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    • Chouia wrote:
      0.8*0.6=0.48 Do we have to round?

      No rounding, the turn counter is a float value.

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    • Ok, thanks. So, I guess that the weapon's speed is a float value too!

      I will resurect DM-300 with an ankh, and I'll try again with the mace. I need at least 25 hits in a row to be sure... With a full vial, I can survive enough time... But he must survive too... A Ring of Accuracy -10 would be nice. ;)


      And this post talks about War Hammer... but personnally, I prefer the Glaive! (With surprise attack, accuracy is not so important.) I'll try to determine the best one. It's not easy, because it depends of your level, your strength, your weapon's level, the enemy's dodge, the enemy's armor... but I can simply start with one specific case.

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    • Chouia wrote:
      Ok, my fault. :) My math is correct in the previous post, but if you read the hypothesis I used, you can see I didn't use your input. I was not sure, but... I badly chose to understand that "you got twice in a row, once every 4", and not that "you attack twice in a row always, and you attack once only every 4". I couldn't believe a weighstone could be so powerful. :) But it is powerful...

      I did quickly some tests:

      With a knuckelduster balanced for speed, ther pattern is 3-3-4, so you attack ten times when the enemy attacks 3 times. The speed is not 0.5 anymore, but 0.3. There, I thought a weightstone was -0.2 turn... and so, I thought it was particularly efficient with fast weapons. But I was wrong. As we'll see, it's probably -40% turn! 0.5*0.6 = 0.3

      With a mace balanced for speed, you hit usually two times, and sometimes 3 times. It's hard to find the pattern. On DM-300, I could hit twice in a row 9 times, and then 3 hits in a row. 0.8*0.6=0.48 Do we have to round? Or does it really mean that we have 2 hits in a row 11 times, then 3 hit in a row? (So, we hit 25 times when the ennemy hits 12 times, it's 0.48.)

      With a sword balanced for speed, no surprise, the pattern is 2-2-1, as we could expect. We attack 5 times when the enemy attacks 3 times... 1*0.6 = 0.6, as new speed for the sword.


      So, the weighstone improve the speed of a weapon by 40%. (You get 0.6 * initial speed.) Sincerly, if it's really like that, it's enormous! If a weightstone was 0.8, I would already think it's very powerful. You could get the mace's speed with any normal weapon. So, 0.6 is... too much? :) For only 500 gold more or less, we are almost 2 times more powerful than before!

      You got your math right now it's just the percent this time. It improves it by 80%. Let me try to explain.

      So the Weightstone multiplies the speed of a weapon by 1.8. That's 80% faster. So here is how I did it. 2 (speed)=0.5 (delay). So 1.8 (speed)=0.6 (delay) etc. until it gets to 1 for both. (It works between 1 and 2, 2 and 4 etc. You must double the difference between the numbers every time you go in between the next set of numbers. Ex: In between 2 and 4 the difference between the numbers is 0.4 and in between 1 and 2 it's 0.2.) So 1.8 (speed)=0.6 (delay). That makes it 80% faster. So 0.7 would be 60%, 0.8 would be 40%, 0.9=20%, and 1 would be 0%.

      I hope you understand now.

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    • Hmmm... first, we have to define what is the speed... :)

      Usually, I (mis)use "speed". I should use "delay". And the delay is measured with turns. So the Weightsone multiply the delay by 0.6. (Or reduce it by 40%, it's the same.) If you had a delay of 1 turn for a weapon, it becomes 0.6 turn when it's balanced for speed.

      If we want a speed's percentage, we could say that the speed is "the number of hits in one turn". In this case, we can say that the weightstone multiplies the speed by 1.66. When a normal weapon hit 1 time in 1 turn, with a weighstone you will have 1*1.66 = 1.66 hit by turn. For a knuckelduster: 2*1.66 = 3.33 hits each turn. For a mace, 1.25*1.66 = 2.08 hits each turn.

      If we want practically "discover" it, using the practical tests:

      Before, with a normal weapon you hit 3 times in 3 turns. With the weighstone, you hit 5 times in 3 turns. So, how much is 5 compared to 3? 5/3 = 1.66. So, now you attack 66% faster than before.

      Before, with a knuckelduster, you hit 6 times  in 3 turns. With the weighstone, you hit 10 times in 3 turns. So, how much is 10 compared to 3? 10/6 = 1.66. So, now you attack 66% faster.

      All that because the weapon is 40% faster. :D And it's logical. Consider the delay you need to do something is 60 min. If you improve/reduce this delay by 40%, then new delay to do this thing will be 36 min. How much is the old delay compared to the new delay ? 60/36 = 1.66. So, if you use the new delay, you will do 66% more (a 66% speeed bonus), compared to the old delay.


      But maybe we go too far. :) (And sorry, I don't uderstand the 80% faster... "Whe have 2"... what? And how should I interpret "2=0.5" ?) On the wiki, a weapon is defined with the delay. So, to say that "a weighstone reduce the delay of a weapon by 40%" is maybe not a bad option?

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    • For weapons damage, I won't calculate, because this very good page already exist: http://pixeldungeon.wikia.com/wiki/Expected_rate_of_damage

      And the War Hammer is the winner. Not so surprising, because the glaive is just 2 damage more on average (and 5 damage more for the max). But when you miss, you lose a lot of damage. Both weapons get the same bonus with upgrade scrolls. So, with a lot of upgrade, the war hammer is even better. But... these tables consider an ennemy with no armor, and with good dodge. In real game, it could be a little bit different. (I can't estimate for now...)

      The knuckelduster is not far... but again, with no armor, it's not fair: the knuckelduster doesn't like armor! :) However, when you hit a lot with a so fast weapon, you get more chances to do good hits (and more chances to do bad hits...), so there is less bad (or good) surprises.

      Personnally, I still prefer the glaive: the damage bonus is small, but if you use surprise attacks, and if you are lucky with a max damage, it's fun, and it's the most violent hit you could do! :D

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    • Chouia wrote:
      So, to say that "a weighstone reduce the delay of a weapon by 40%" is maybe not a bad option?

      It’s in fact the best one!

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    • Personally I love the Knuckleduster because, when you manage to imrpove your personnal speed (Ring of Haste) or the speed of the Knuckleduster (Weighstone), you can use this strategy :

      -  Normally, with a bit luck, you can raise your Knuckle to 4 - 5 hits per ennemy hit.

      -  It implies that you can hit +- times and step back one time, so you won't take any damage while fighting a melee ennemies. The only thing you have to do for them is trying ti fight them one by one (or you can use Wand of Amok : in this case it is great).  And when you attack a range ennemy, well you just get close to him and hit him a lot ! ;) 

      - But you can still improve this strategy by using the Freerunner that can move 1.6 times faster than most of the ennemies (if not starving and wearing a too heavy armor).

      I remember the first time I beat the game : I used this strategy and I used very few potions of healing in the Dwarf City and Demon Halls, even if I explored them a lot!

      So for me, Knuckleduster is the best!! And one plus is that getting a Knuckleduster is much more easier than a War Hammer  (with Hero's Remains, you can manage to get one on the first levels by suiciding a mage).   

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    • @ Chouia

      Look at my post again. I edited it so maybe you'll be able to understand.

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    • All right, I have now completed a run with the war hammer. After taking out the two fists, Yog-Dzewa took only 7 or 8 hits to defeat. It has my attention.

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    • Skodt, notice that with the weigstone, it's now possible to try this strategy with another weapon, because all weapons can become quick. ;) But for sure, it's more easy with a knuckelduster. And it's more easy to be sure to get a knuckelduster when you start. (Even if the ghost had already given to me a War Hammer +3. ;) ) Yet, the knuckelduster is nice versus monks, and for the gladiator... (But it's probably less interesting for the assassin... )

      Thanks SupeSaiyan99, now I understand. However, I can't agree with 1.8 (speed)=0.6 (delay). Maybe I don't understand some point? With 0.6 delay, in one turn, you hit 0.6+0.4. So, 1 hit, and 0.4/0.6 of one hit -> so speed is 1.66. With 1.8 speed, delay would be 0.55...5..., isn't it? With 0.55 delay, in one turn you will hit: 0.55+045. And 0.55 is 1 turn, 0.45 is 80% of 0.55  -> 1+0.8 = 1.8 hits by turn (speed).


      Anyway, all weapons can be  good with enough upgrades! :D Especially Tier-5, Tier-4 and knuckelduster. I'm surprised that the mace is so low, because I really like it... I'm surprised with the dagger too, because I prefer the short sword. (But again, if you don't take into account armor, surprise attack, and average ennemies' dodge, you miss some points.) Abstract of the EROD page for damage per turn:

      With 18 strength, and weapons +0:

      Hammer(8.75) > Glaive(8.50) > Axe (7.00) = Knuckel(7.00) = LSword(7.00) > Mace(5.63) > Sword(5.50) > staff(5.00) > Dagger(4.67) > SSword(4.50) > Spear(4.33)

      With 18 strength, and weapons +5:

      Hammer(18.33) > Glaive(15) > Axe (14.67) > Knuckel(14.50) > LSword(12.00) > Mace(10.63) > Sword(9.50) > staff(7.50) > Dagger(9) > SSword(8.50) > Spear(6.00)

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    • Chouia wrote:

      Thanks SupeSaiyan99, now I understand. However, I can't agree with 1.8 (speed)=0.6 (delay). Maybe I don't understand some point? With 0.6 delay, in one turn, you hit 0.6+0.4. So, 1 hit, and 0.4/0.6 of one hit -> so speed is 1.66. With 1.8 speed, delay would be 0.55...5..., isn't it? With 0.55 delay, in one turn you will hit: 0.55+045. And 0.55 is 1 turn, 0.45 is 80% of 0.55  -> 1+0.8 = 1.8 hits by turn (speed).

      Yeah, your right, but hey, it works.

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    • Knuckleduster balanced for speed!

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    • Degradation has killed the knuckleduster.  RIP little guy.

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    • Get a war hammer, and make it fast with the weightstone. The only advantage the knuckleduster has after you do that is not being able to be knocked out of your hands, but if you one-shot the monks with your awesome +10 war hammer then it doesn't matter.


      -DarthMimic-

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    • DarthMimic wrote:
      Get a war hammer, and make it fast with the weightstone. The only advantage the knuckleduster has after you do that is not being able to be knocked out of your hands, but if you one-shot the monks with your awesome +10 war hammer then it doesn't matter.

      The Knuckleduster will still be faster. The Weightstone increases the weapon's speed by 40 %, and the Knuckleduster's speed is 50 % faster than the War Hammer.

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    • To be honest, I never used the knuckleduster/spear strategy. I'm fine with the war hammer, since if you have a good armor, you can have a situation like I had:

      Items: +4 War Hammer, +6 Plate Armor, +2 Ring of Haste, Ring of Thorns, 3 spare Upgrade scrolls

      Situation: You walk into a room with a Dwarf Monk and a Fire Element, and you have full HP. Both wake up when you enter.

      The monk started running to me, I just keep spamming on him, and dropped my weapon off while the monk was >25% HP A N D I walked away and the monk standed on my weapon. Keeped hitting him w/ no weapon, he died in 4 hits cuz Thorns and i got hit about 10 times (Fire is there too, remember?) and got burned 3 times. Eventually killed the monk, picked up the war hammer and killed the fire in 1 hit (...somehow.)

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    • Just balance a mace for speed. It does more damage and is actually FASTER, but it can still be knocked out.

      I myself still prefer the warhammer though, knuckledusters don't work well for me

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    • This is an old thread...the knuckleduster is now much weaker than it once was, so there's no debate over which wepaon is now better (VERY easily, the war hammer).

      Don't waste your time trying to win with the knucleduster (like i did), it won't work. Fair warning.

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    • As the knuckleduster is way easier to get, you should usually get it faster, or instantly, giving time to tweak, but the hammer is usually rare, and when found, you have used lots of limited upgrade scrolls on other things. However, a knuckleduster at plus four or more can be unrivaled, but breaks in the period of vein one depth.

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    • I won the game with a +6 broken grim knuckleduster. All i had to do was hit enemies until the grim enchant procs. To complete the build my armor was a +5 leather armor of potential(rouge garb), +5 ring of haste and a +3 ring of elements.

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    • 112.198.76.182 wrote:
      I won the game with a +6 broken grim knuckleduster. All i had to do was hit enemies until the grim enchant procs. To complete the build my armor was a +5 leather armor of potential(rouge garb), +5 ring of haste and a +3 ring of elements.

      I-- er-- ah... Wow. I applaud your ability to walk through the halls of the Dungeon, basically ignoring any logic that would state that you're on an impossible run, and beat the game with that build.

      Well, then again, Haste + Knuckleduster + Grim + Freerunner [presumably] = OP. Never mind.

      [Still, though. Bravo.]

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    • Best weapon in the game is the dart and best armor is no armor.
      Also, I never use rings because Batman.
      And my win ratio is 100%. I always win.
      Be true and keep your bro fists always up....

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    • Use a gladiator with it, as you can take advantage of the combos

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    • A grim knuckle duster with maxed out speed is infinitely better than a grim warhammer except for bosses

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    • A FANDOM user
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