Hi Evan, I realised today that although wiki's pages are counted as being 729 at the top of the page, they are actually far less, due to many pages being blank and just redirecting to another page. For example, look at how many redirects are listed here.
Taking a sample, I checked how many of the pages listed in the left column of the first link were actual non-data pages, and they were only 37 out of 115 pages, which gives a 32% percentage (I know this a is a joke for proper random sampling, but it still gives a picture). If we subtract from those 729 pages the 150 that belong to mods (I did some additions to the mods catalogue and ended up counting their pages), that leaves us with 730-150=580*32%=185 pages approximately. As this number is manageable for sorting, would you consider useful a page with Original PD's active pages sorted in subjects or alphabetically? I am asking because I would be glad to do it, but writing a list and then adding links to it is rather boring, so I would not like to get into this inconvenience and then enter a discussion about the page remaining in the wiki or not. Note that I am genuinely asking the question, and not asking a favor from you to let me write the page. Also, happy new year!
SuperSaiyan99 might also want to weigh in on this, but I feel like such a page would be useful.
One thing to note though is it sounds similar in functionality to the front page of the wiki, which is also trying to list/categorize the Wiki's Vanilla PD content for easy viewing. Currently I don't think it does too great of a job though, as the actual content is all relegated to a scrolling list on the left, which contains about 2.5x as many items as its size on my screen. I've never really had the time to consider it properly but I do think the front page could do with reorganizing, so that the actual content (including mods potentially) is presented more directly.
SuperSayian becomes inactive for extended periods currently, so I will proceed with just your OK, and if he eventually thinks that the page is an abomination and should get deleted, I will listen to the Universe Song by Monty Pythons and make peace with that.
About your second paragraph, I agree, but adding a selection of wiki's contents organized thematically to its main page is far more crucial than adding just a page to it, and SuperSayian's opinion weighs even more. So, here's what I think we should do. I will start compiling the content as part of a plain wiki page and when I finish the link-adding and sorting in contents, I will ask you to edit it. Then we can wait for SuperSayian to share his thoughts about its place in the wiki.
Update: Here is a small part, currently sorting only contents under A https://pixeldungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Content_Page_WIP Don't bother with it yet, I will tell you when I need your opinion/edit, I am just letting you know. Btw, the percentage for A was higher than the 32% of the random sample, 18 pages sorted/34 original catalogue pages, so 52%, but half the amount is still considerably less.
Edit: Remind me where I can find the wiki's categories all together, I am sure you have written me a link previously here or in reddit, but I am unable to find it. I assume that some category pages could also fit in the page in a separate section, or added here there in the different subjects.
I remembered this conversation as Mdsimmo giving me the green light to make some front page edits, but upon re-reading it now I realize I remembered incorrectly, and he basically gave me permission to make changes to the Wikia in general.
In the next few days I'm going to try and message him (hopefully he still gets notified) so I can see if he can promote me to Bureaucrat. That will let me promote some of the more recently active people to admin and content moderator roles, and then we can start discussing how we might want to improve the wiki in general.
Conveniently, I think the first major step should be redesigning the front page of the wiki. Currently there's a lot of space which is being taken up by descriptions of what the game and wiki are, and that space could instead be used to link to the actual content. If we use space more wisely, and perhaps condense the links to vanilla content a bit, there should be loads of room to link to content pertaining to mods. Condensing the vanilla categories a bit means that larger vanilla information pages would be quite useful, and that happens to be exactly what you're working on!
Understanding administrator status as "ability to make some front page edits" is in the border between humiility and inadequate reading comprehension lol. I agree that active contributors that have a more general opinion about the wiki should get promoted, and this can't be achieved otherwise than promoting the currently only constantly active administrator, you, to bureaucrat, I agree also with that. You imply me as one of these contributors, and I thank you for your appreciation, but if you won't mind a suggestion, Omicronrg9 is a frequent contributor who would be the most useful to get promoted (and I mean it in a sense that if you would promote only one, I think that you should choose him over me or any other person), as he has the greatest supervision about the PD mods and is not biased at all in his approach to them. Conversely, when there is negative bias towards specific mods, I think priviledges should be granted with moderation. I agree also with all your ideas about the wiki's front page and I will put the writing of the page in higher priority for this reason. All in all, go for it :-)
Edit: You haven't answered the question about the categories list, it is not urgent, but do find it and copy paste it here when you have time.
Edit 2: I counted the total pages from A to D and those that I have sorted and included in the page, and they are 77/273 - 28%, so the whole thing proceeds much quicker than I expected. It seems that the amount of redirects and data stubs that are counted as pages is actually huge.
Well the wikia has both admin and bureaucrat roles, so I assumed my promotion to admin was more about upkeep than making changes. Of course having seen that message again I realize that's not the case. I don't want to commit to anyone in particular, but I think you, Omicronrg9, MrKukurykpl, and Zrp200 are all obvious candidates for promotion.
Yeah, I mentioned Omicronrg9 because his written contributions in the wiki are far less in amount than those of the other 3 people you mentioned, but has other important wiki-related virtues, and I was making myself sure that you acknowledge them as well. In any case I was not asking you to commit to anyone in particular, you are a fully grown man and a developer of 2 mods, you are totally capable of making your own PD decisions unasisted :-). That said, the absence of negative bias towards specific mods I think should be a basic criterion of promoting a contributor to a very high status, whoever that person may be.
Agreed, while I do think that the people I mentioned will have preferences (for example, many members of the English community dislike the gameplay of Remixed Dungeon), I trust that won't affect their decision-making when it comes to wiki editing, especially given that any major decision such as design changes to the front page should be done as a group. If you do have any specific concerns you wanted to share privately I'd be happy to hear them though.
Υes, I was mostly thinking the dislike or even hate that Remixed occasionally gets, but I wrote it is a ganeral criterion applying to all mods, thinking that community administrators should be impartial to start with (they can have positive bias - preferences, negative bias is the problem), as their higher status grants more symbolic power to their words. Thanks for the invitation to a possible personal communication, but I will decline it for this subject, making personalized negative comments in a non public channel of communciation is not a good practice I think, or more simply put, rather petty and catty for my taste.
Fair enough, my main point with the invitation was in case you had any information I wasn't aware of, not just to give an opinion. I don't think just expressing a negative opinion about a mod means that person has a negative bias, but after looking over chat history regarding remixed I agree that it's significant enough to be a factor. I (hopefully) would have noticed this either way, as I was planning on looking into activity history, but it's helpful to be made aware of this early, thanks.
I think that information easily available to everybody here in the wiki or in reddit/discord will be more than enough for you to reach a conclusion, and if I had initially understood what you actually meant, I would have told you privately just the same thing, so we ended up with the same result :-) So, congrats for your new role, I just saw in the Recent Wiki Activity that Mdsimmo has responded to you and learned the news this way. You already said that you are planning to look into activity history, look into whatever you think it will be useful for you obviously, but if you have time, have a look also in the second paragraph of my profile, I wrote it 20 days ago, not imagining at all the possibility of a discussion like that we are currently having, but it describes rather accurately how I see the wiki in general.
Hi Evan, this is sort of irrelevant to this thread, but there is no need for a mural of my messages on your wall, so I am posting it here. I have just added a paragraph about the GPL license in the general mods page (the one I have asked you already to have a look/edit it), but I am not 100% sure I got everything right, so be kind enough to have also a look at it. To make your life easier, I am copy pasting the addition here (I want you to check the text in italics).
Starting from the 27th July 2014, the developer of Original PD, Watabou / Oleg Dolya, has made the game's code public and as a consequence has allowed the development of modifications for it by various secondary developers, as Pixel Dungeon has become since an open source applicationwith its modifications having to follow the guidelines of the GNU General Public License v.3. The license provides a general framework for all open source software, but its requirements most relevant to PD modding are that credit should be given to the original source material's developer(s) and that the source code of the new game has to be also public and so open to new modifications itself. Modifications that violate the GNU GPL v.3's guidelines, those allready mentioned or others, are considered illegitimate and sooner or later get forced to withdraw from most platforms of public distribution (it should be noted that although monetization in the form of having to buy the game, in-game advertisements or of extra content only available after purchase is disliked by many PD players, it is not against the GNU GPL v.3 license's guidelines).
Update: I have also added this pargraph. I need your opinion for all of it, so using italcis is pointless here.
It has already been mentioned in the beginning of this page that the requirements of the GNU GPL v.3 license most relevant to PD modding are that credit should be given to the original source material's developer(s) and that the source code of the new game has to be also public and so the game open to new modifications itself; mods that violate the GNU GPL v.3's guidelines are considered illegitimate and sooner or later get forced to withdraw from most platforms of public distribution. The most common "offense" of illegitimate mods is for them to be just clones/ripoffs of an already existing mod or of the Original and to not mention their source in an attempt to cover up this fact. Nevertheless, some mods violate the GNU GPL v.3 license without any malicious intention by their developers, for example in the case of mods that acknowledge their source, add original content to it, but their developers don't make the source code publicly available (this can be just due to negligence, or a temporary fault, because the developer wants to finalize the source code before they make it available to the public). Note that a mod can be considered problematic for reasons that are not described by the license: for example for using intellectual property of another developer which is not covered by the license, so it is actually protected by copyright, or for including hate speech or other inappropriate features in its content (both examples are drawn from existing PD mods). The PD wiki is currently making the decision to host pages for mods that are problematic for various reasons, and just to mention the problematic facts in the mods' descriptions, while it only excludes plain clones/ripoffs from having a page in it. Nevertheless the PD subreddit has a stricter policy than the wiki, and in addition to clone/ripoff mods currently also bans developers that they have been proven to include hate speech content in their mods, and mods that contain copyrighted material which was not used after permission of the original creator.
Sorry for the delay, I've been a bit backed up with messages due to the latest Shattered beta release. Both of those paragraphs sound correct to me. I think these sort of 'general information' pages (you were also working on something a bit similar for vanilla, correct?) might go along well with a redesigned front page, as one easy way to improve information density there is to have some sub pages, instead of exhaustively listing categories. I'm hoping to have an early draft of what a better front page might look like in a few days.
No need to apologize, as I have told you elsewhere, there was no hurry. I am glad that these paragraphs are correct, understanding legal-ish texts in English is definitely not among the strong points of my reading comprehension, that's why I asked for your opinion.
Yeah I have been working also in this https://pixeldungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Content_Page_WIP, this thread we are in basically started about writng this page or not :-) This page was close to being completed as a first draft (I have selected and sorted all regular pages from A to M and also all category pages), but I have decided to wait for a discussion that we had both participated along with other people to come to a closure, before I continue with it, because I would like to receive feedback about the sorting criteria from some other people as well but I would also prefer it to be done constructively.
I have already told you that I agree in general with your idea of redesigning the front page. Whenever you have time and finish a first draft of it I will be much interested to see it.